Oso Famoso objects to my calling out the Catholic church for fighting homosexuality, while shielding the NAMBLAmaniacs within their midst:
"The Church is dogmatically, harmonized with God's law. For this reason the Church upholds the sanctity of marriage as a sacrament. ....
Unfortunately, as was the case in Paul's (and before) time, there are wolves among the sheep.
I was asked how I would define marriage...I don't see how throwing out a red-herring about clergy abuse is related to marriage. "
It's not a red herring at all. The very fact that Oso can't connect the dots on this issue is a testament to why Christian conservatives in general, and catholics in particular, are on the losing side of a culture war.
When a church is devoting so many resources towards fighting a battle they are losing, how can they win the larger war? Less than 2 percent of the country is gay. The percentage of the priesthood that has been accused of child abuse is larger than that, for heaven's sakes! and its not just catholic priests - how about Foley, how about Haggard, what about Larry Craig?
The church, and for that matter the Christian right, should focus first and foremost, on the integrity and holiness of its own leadership. Then it should focus on the integrity and holiness of heterosexual marriage and morality of the members within its own body. Only THEN, when its own house is in order, should it spend one second worrying about what a small minority of people in this country are doing in their bedrooms, or whether or not they can join in whatever legal arrangement they want. And yet the right is talking about going to the trouble to amend the constitution! I quote Timothy:
"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."
Is there any wonder why non-Christians think we are hypocrites? Christian right-wingers are not exactly known for having very many of those qualities listed above. Proud (Rush), greedy (it's my tax money!), war-like (Bomb Iran!), quarrelsome (O'Reilly, Coulter, etc,etc,etc,), covetous (Jack Abramoff....). And we certainly don't rule our own house well, with 50 percent of marriages ending in divorce. And before you object, yes I know these people I'm mentioning are not necessarily Christians. But Christians have been co-opted by them! They are part and parcel of the same movement. You are who you sleep with, so to speak.
As Christians we need to get our own house in order. Show the world that we can actually be what we are called to be, before we start using the state to set an agenda we don't even live up to ourselves. That is the very essence of Christian humility.
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Your words in italics...
It's not a red herring at all. The very fact that he can't connect the dots on this issue is a testament to why Christian conservatives in general, and catholics in particular, are on the losing side of a culture war.
OK...so we'll "win" the culture war if we allow gay people to get married in our church? We'll win if the church concedes marriage and changes its ancient doctrines concerning marriage?
When a church is devoting so many resources towards fighting a battle they are losing, how can they win the larger war?
What battle are they losing? What do you mean by "resources?" It isn't like the Catholic Church is paying for some gigantic anti-homosexual marriage campaign. The Church is just teaching its dogmas and doctrines...I don't know how that amounts to "devoting huge amounts of resources."
Less than 2 percent of the country is gay. The percentage of the priesthood that has been accused of child abuse is larger than that, for heaven's sakes!
I'll ask you again...What does the sanctity of marriage have to do with homosexual/predator priests?
If you like statistics you'll be unhappy to realize that statistically speaking Protestant clergy abused children at just about the same rate as Catholic clergy. The Catholic Church is doing A LOT about it. Just recently Benedict re-iterated the fact that homosexuals, non-practicing, ought not be admitted into seminaries. The billions of dollars that the Catholic Church has paid to victims is testimony that the are doing something about it healing those wounds. They are also putting forth tremendous effort to insure that this sort of thing doesn’t take hold again.
and its not just catholic priests -how about Foley, how about Haggard, what about Larry Craig?
Those guys are definitely hypocrites. But the Catholic Church, and any other, can still have a set of beliefs which it holds true. The fact that some abuse those truths and engage in various SIN doesn't make the dogmas less true!
The church, and for that matter the Christian right, should focus first and foremost, on the integrity and holiness of its own leadership.
We do that. You should take some time to read what the Church and other Christian churches write about the topic. Since you love statistics it was about 2-3% of Catholic priests from 1960-1999 who were accused of committing those horrible acts.
Now I think that 2-3% is too much. One priest would be too much. But that doesn't mean that the Catholic Church has to abandon its teachings on marriage!!!
It isn't like we should say, "OK folks...we aren't allowed to talk about sin anymore because apparently some of our own have a sin problem." (That sin problem, by the way, will always be present...which is why we needed a savior)
Then it should focus on the integrity and holiness of heterosexual marriage and morality of the members within its own body. Only THEN, when its own house is in order
So we shouldn't have doctrines about morality until Christ's return. That is what you are saying because the house will never be completely in order until then.
worrying about what a small minority of people in this country are doing in their bedrooms, or whether or not they can join in whatever legal arrangement they want.
Did you read what I wrote previously? I said that the legal arrangement didn't really matter.
Let me ask you this...you don't like pedophilia do you? Why are you trying to impose your morality on pedophiles? I mean, they are just men doing things in the privacy of their bedrooms! What gives you the right to correct their behavior?!?! I mean, there are sinners and adulterers in your Church! You need to clean your own house before you point your finger at pedophiles!
I quote Timothy:
"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."
That is all true...but it doesn't mean that all will live up to that perfectly! And it doesn't mean that we should abandon our doctrinal and moral truths just because a small percentage of pastors/priests fail!
Is there any wonder why non-Christians think we are hypocrites?
We are all sinners in need of a savior. Admitting that isn't hypocritical. Are you a sinner Mark? If you are, what right do you have to try to correct the actions of a pedophile or rapist?
Christian right-wingers are not exactly known for having very many of those qualities listed above. Proud (Rush), greedy (it's my tax money!), war-like (Bomb Iran!), quarrelsome (O'Reilly, Coulter, etc,etc,etc,), covetous (Jack Abramoff....). And we certainly don't rule our own house well, with 50 percent of marriages ending in divorce.
You are throwing out some of the worst examples possible. That isn't fair. Since you are down on the Catholic Church why don't you use as an example any one of the other 98% of priests during the past generation that gave up their very lives to serve God's people honestly and faithfully. Living in poverty. Protesting against war...and upholding many of the other liberal values that are true and good?
As Christians we need to get our own house in order.
Yes, we should. And part of that is preaching the truth. It wouldn't be true to say that a man can validly marry another man in God's eyes.
Nice retort, Oso Famoso. I like a lot of what you said. I think Mark's point, however, is not about the Catholic Church but about the Christian church in general and especially about what is commonly known as the Christian right. I think we can even extrapolate it to be about individual Christians.
I think what Mark is really getting at is that the Church (the global, Christian church)should focus on the actions of its members instead of focusing on the actions of the state. It doesn't mean that Christian morality can play no role in government, though, because some issues involve those who cannot defend themselves, who cannot legally enter into contracts, or actions that impinge on the rights of others. So some issues like murder, abortion, and pedophilia are sins that can and should be outlawed. And it is individual Christians who should fight to correct these wrongs.
Homosexuality and marriage are a different issue, as you stated in your comments to "The Gay Marriage Issue." I agree with your points there.
I think what Mark is saying, though, is that even in the individual Christian, there is the impulse to "stamp out all sin," even in nonbelievers. Really, we should never be surprised that non-Christians act like non-Christians. We should instead be surprised that they haven't all killed one another (really due to God's grace).
Instead of legislating morality that does not impinge on the rights of others, individual Christians should instead focus on their own battles with sin. And the same should be true of the Christian church.
Instead of legislating morality that does not impinge on the rights of others, individual Christians should instead focus on their own battles with sin. And the same should be true of the Christian church.
That very well may be true. There certainly are "bible thumpers" out there who need to "take the plank out of their own eye."
The other issue is that some Christians don't realize that it isn't the governement that really defines marriage. Only God does that. Therefore, they get bent out of shape when the government moves to allow gays to marry. They think that it will "destroy marriage."
I cannot imagine what being married to a dude would be like. I really really like being married to my wife. She's my favorite person on the planet.
My two cents.
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